tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post2008114848449425763..comments2023-05-07T09:06:59.941-04:00Comments on Valerie Douglas - Writer's Blog: Paypal, Smashwords and Bookstrand - Erotic Romance/Erotica and PornValerie Douglashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18290746965893799388noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-50059972973711086872012-02-28T22:32:56.317-05:002012-02-28T22:32:56.317-05:00Point well made on the labeling. Judgmental it tru...Point well made on the labeling. Judgmental it truly is, especially if censorship is considered only applicable if done by the government, not by media outlets or other controlling bodies.<br /><br />I can't remember when Flowers was released. I just remember reading the 4 or 5 books in the series as a teen and wondering about genetic mutation issues lol. But I guess that's what would come to mind for a nurses daughter.<br /><br />Thanks so much for going back and forth on this issue with me. As there are no people close to me that know anything about what's going on at all, it's nice to be able to "toss around" the issue with others like you! =O)Megan@Riverina Romanticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10844721821377286848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-27326860486926568732012-02-28T20:46:47.201-05:002012-02-28T20:46:47.201-05:00When Flowers in the Attic was first released - som...When Flowers in the Attic was first released - something I remember - there was no such thing as YA. The scenes of incest within it weren't written to titillate.<br />In an case, it's not relevant. <br />There ISN'T too much censorship going on, censorship is a legal process. What Paypal is doing is questionable, but it's not illegal, and technically it's not censorship. As a business they have the perfect right to do what they're doing, whether you or I approve or not. Please understand, I'm not saying that I like or approve, because I don't. It's judgmental, it's restriction of commerce, but it's not censorship.Valerie Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290746965893799388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-72946789800386305432012-02-28T19:18:00.967-05:002012-02-28T19:18:00.967-05:00Thank you for the apology. Though I don't agre...Thank you for the apology. Though I don't agree with everything that you said, it is obvious to me that you put a lot of thought into this post.<br /><br />Yes. I know that Flowers in the Attic isn't marketed as erotica or erotic romance. I guess I'm just annoyed at the whole situation. There is just way too much censorship going on and I'm worried as to how far it will eventually go as well as how much of a double standard is going on. If things that aren't illegal are getting the ax then will YA books like Flowers - that deal with illegal issues - going to come under the blade eventually too?Megan@Riverina Romanticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10844721821377286848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-58632942758643059952012-02-27T18:35:59.424-05:002012-02-27T18:35:59.424-05:00This is my last and final statement on the matter....This is my last and final statement on the matter. It will be copied and posted each time a 'friend' comments on the matter. <br />Re: Smashwords and Paypal. <br />Legally it's not an attack on free speech and it's not censorship - which requires the government - it's simply a corporation saying No, I won't promote sex with minors, rape, incest or bestiality. Which they have the right to do.<br />There were and are alternatives but everyone drew lines in the sand. I don't support book banning or censorship, but this is neither. It's a corporation saying, I won't. <br />A part of me wants to applaud their courage in declaring that they won't participate in the degradation of women and children. <br />Another runs to raise the sword and say "I will defend to the death your right to write about any subject you choose."<br />Difficult as it is, there was the alternative of setting up separate sites, making such material available in other ways. None of the participants chose to do so because it was "difficult". Easier by far to blame Paypal for not wishing to participate or condone those who wish to abuse women and children by making rape, incest objects of titillation and abuse.<br />Personally, as a writer of all kinds of fiction, including erotica, I find such subject matter abhorrent in the extreme, but I can and will fight to the death for your right to want to publish it. But this is not it. There are alternatives. Find them or create them.Valerie Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290746965893799388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-42430602309094782552012-02-27T08:24:32.290-05:002012-02-27T08:24:32.290-05:00Sorry Megan - but to be honest, I was taking a lot...Sorry Megan - but to be honest, I was taking a lot of heat from a lot of people for a blog I thought was a reasoned response to the situation. There's definitely a lot of misinformation flying around. My apologies because response was unnecessarily snappish. Many people have brought up Flowers in the Attic, as well as Lolita and other books as examples of fiction that might be banned. But none of those were written as erotic fiction, or explicitly to use rape, incest or sex with minors as titillation. That's an entirely different thing. <br />So, I do apologize for being a little rude.Valerie Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290746965893799388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-81830303699167186412012-02-26T12:20:15.881-05:002012-02-26T12:20:15.881-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.LK Wattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09366991733427612418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-83293718208583241462012-02-26T02:00:40.265-05:002012-02-26T02:00:40.265-05:00Actually, I wasn't trying to argue with you at...Actually, I wasn't trying to argue with you at all. I thought we were engaging in a conversation and I was sharing with you not only my opinion but also where I had heard some information that was related to your post.Megan@Riverina Romanticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10844721821377286848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-24512544888453620592012-02-26T00:14:27.425-05:002012-02-26T00:14:27.425-05:00I think that the story line in Flowers in the Atti...I think that the story line in Flowers in the Attic establishes the situation they were in, it was also not marketed as erotica. (Personally I wasn't fond of the book myself, but that's me.)<br />And while Selena might have spoken to Paypal, according to Mark Coker's statement re:Paypal, BDSM is NOT out at SW. Se may have an issue with her own site, but Mark Coker has apparently negotiated a different arrangement. <br />https://www.smashwords.com/press/release/27<br />Perhaps rather than argue with me, you could take the time to do your own research.Valerie Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290746965893799388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-45993903193384940892012-02-25T23:29:22.673-05:002012-02-25T23:29:22.673-05:00You don't think that a brother and a sister ho...You don't think that a brother and a sister hooking up and creating a family and children doesn't glorify incest? I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.<br /><br />According to a conversation that author Selena Kitt had with Paypal, BDSM is out. I've provided the link to her post about the subject. <br /><br />http://selenakitt.com/blog/index.php/2012/02/19/slippery-slope-erotica-censorship/Megan@Riverina Romanticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10844721821377286848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-79532224784282863432012-02-25T22:25:23.086-05:002012-02-25T22:25:23.086-05:00Paypal is a business like any other, and they can ...Paypal is a business like any other, and they can choose what they condone and what they don't - just like the corner grocery. <br />I can't govern them, neither can anyone, as Mark Coker points out. They tried to negotiate, neither side could find common ground....Valerie Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290746965893799388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-28801147907104284662012-02-25T22:20:55.847-05:002012-02-25T22:20:55.847-05:00Actually, Flowers in the Attic would have been exe...Actually, Flowers in the Attic would have been exempt because it didn't glorify incest. BDSM hasn't gotten the boot, I double checked the text. Only non-consensual - that is without safe words, constituting rape - has gotten the boot.Valerie Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290746965893799388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-13584926315401991672012-02-25T20:55:19.902-05:002012-02-25T20:55:19.902-05:00Honestly, I don't think paypal should demand t...Honestly, I don't think paypal should demand those stories be taken down. It does feel like a form of censorship. People are weird when it comes to sex and enjoy reading about kinky or objectionable topics. Let's face it, some people get off on it. That doesn't make a person who enjoys reading a story about rape a bad person or go out and actually rape someone, but that's just shows how complex (or messed up, your choice) people are.<br /><br />I guess what makes this subject so tricky is the fact some ppl find it exciting and others (victims of such acts) find it horrifying. How do you find a balance between the two so no one is hurt and nothing is censored?<br /><br />I like your idea of separating the erotica titles into their own site, Valerie. It will make it easier for people to sort through and find the type of story (or kink) they are looking for.Patricia JLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17582005500429122486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-28500186561330536462012-02-25T19:42:14.957-05:002012-02-25T19:42:14.957-05:00I like the idea of separating erotica and erotic r...I like the idea of separating erotica and erotic romance. What I don't approve of is the pick and choose attitude that these sites are taking. If your saying no incest then that should cover all fiction that deals with this topic such as V.C. Andrews Flowers in the Attic series. BDSM is not illegal but that's gotten the boot too.Megan@Riverina Romanticshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10844721821377286848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-67440995033023660442012-02-25T15:30:33.706-05:002012-02-25T15:30:33.706-05:00Wow. Okay. Legally the ACT of committing rape or i...Wow. Okay. Legally the ACT of committing rape or incest is illegal, and given the bestiality of that act, should not be considered titillating. However I understand that people like you do consider it so - who've never experienced the vaginal tearing, who've never bled for days, who've never had difficulty walking for the pain of forced penetration. It probably does seem exciting to you to have someone not care whether you want to have sex or not force themselves on you. That's the reality of rape and incest.<br />On the other hand, I don't openly advocate the banning of such material, I understand that people find it exciting.<br />A few months ago, seeing how much of such material proliferated on Smashwords, I made a suggestion to them, to take the more hard core versions and put it in a separate location - Smashwords Red, perhaps. Not censorship, still available. It would probably increase sales.<br />I do understand that there are some people who find fictional accounts of the degradation of others exciting. As an erotica writer myself, I don't want to be gagged, but unless you're advocating giving such material to 16 year old girls, there should be some separation.Valerie Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18290746965893799388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-357220504719251932.post-61728981603729367992012-02-25T15:11:28.830-05:002012-02-25T15:11:28.830-05:00I'm afraid I feel the need to correct you. The...I'm afraid I feel the need to correct you. The only illegal type of textual erotica is material that deals with pedophilia. Of the types of erotica that have been now excluded from Smashwords, NONE contravene any laws at all. <br /><br />You may find them offensive, you may WISH they were illegal, but fictional accounts of bestiality, rape and incest do not break any laws. <br /><br />I'm afraid your protestations of not supporting censorship ring a little hollow.Remittance Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07902713020074243375noreply@blogger.com